Posts by moggy lover

17

It's my JWD birthday!!

by serendipity in

jw
friends

since i've been on jwd for a year, i thought i'd post about changes in my life.

and can you believe it: despite turning my back on the org, i haven't turned into a drug-addicted, alcoholic, crack ho .

in my first post, i still identified myself as a liberal jw.

Congratulations !! Be well. And may your spiritual odyssey be as rewarding and enchanting as the very first time you held the magical wonder that is your child in your arms. Be at peace within yourself and with whomever you have come to know as the God of all Things,and go confidently through the byways of life, taking each pitfall as a challenge, and each challenge as a stepping stone to victory. The path that has no obstacles leads nowhere.

Frankly, I am glad none of us has all the answers. Since each has some of the answers, it means we need each other all the time. You have helped us and influenced us in ways you will never fathom, but which we will remember and treasure.

And remember Moggy's First Rule of Human Dynamics:

Those who can - do. Those who cannot - preach!

Cheers

37

What's Your All Time Favorite Movie & TV Show?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i love goodfellas with robert deniro and joe pesci.

in the 80's i faithfully watched taxi with a great ensemble cast featuring marilu henner, judd hirsch and of course, reverend jim.

moggy lover

Favourite TV series: The Persuaders, the old Tony Curtis-Roger Moore series that was on... when? mid-70s? something like that.Favourite current series: Medium. Cant remember the name of the knockout lass who plays the lead though,...... Something Arquette is it?

Favourite Movie? hmmmm... hard.... I'd probably say "My Fair Lady"

Cheers

29

2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?

by M.J. in

here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.

moggy lover

MJ: Yep. I certainly would. Its an excellent book for textual research, done by one who is a leader in his field. Metzger was on the original panel that translated the NIV. It is written from an evangelical persepective, in that the author upholds the inerrancy of scripture and the integrity of the NT text.

Its format is similar to that in the site we have already mentioned, ie the terry/textual commentary site, but the book is far more comprehensive, and weighed down with much more textual information.

A WARNING, though:

The book does not come cheap, unfortunately. I got mine at a discount because I was at Bible college at the time studying NT Greek, and even that cost a pack !!

You should be able to obtain a copy at any fairly well stocked Christian bookstore, or you may visit the Inter-Varsity Fellowship website at: www.intervarsity.org

Hope that helps.

Cheers

29

2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?

by M.J. in

here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.

moggy lover

Incidently that site mentioned by both of you, Listener and MJ "ovc.edu/terry/tc/lay272pt.htm" is an excellent one I have added it to my favourites for future reference.

Cheers

29

2 Pet. 3:10 "earth and the works in it will be discovered"?? or burned up?

by M.J. in

here's the nwt rendering of the verse:.

(2 peter 3:10) 10 yet jehovahs day will come as a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a hissing noise, but the elements being intensely hot will be dissolved, and earth and the works in it will be discovered.. other translations say the earth will "burn up".. nkj: but the day of the lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.. ylt: and it will come -- the day of the lord -- as a thief in the night, in which the heavens with a rushing noise will pass away, and the elements with burning heat be dissolved, and earth and the works in it shall be burnt up.. same goes for every other translation i've found.. the word in question, katakaio according to the lexicons i've seen only point to the meaning of: burn & consume by fire.. where did the nwt get "discovered" from?.

moggy lover

As much as one hates to admit it, it does appear that at this text, the NWT has preserved the better attested reading than the KJV and those versions that have been derived, spiritually, at least, from it.

It appears that "Hurisko" - to find, discover, etc [cf the expression Eureka! which is related] was the original reading.Prof Bruce Metzger, writing in the "Textual Commentary on the Greek NT" [pg 706] endorses this reading as the most ancient. It therefore woud have been the original.

Of the three weightiest mss available, two, [from the 4CAD] the Sinaitic and the Vatican have "Hurisko", while the third, the Alexandrian [from the 5CAD] has "Kata-kaio" [ kaio=to burn, + kata an intensifying pronoun] hence=to consume fully with fire, etc. It is this reading that the KJV adopted, and the versions that follow in its wake have done the same.

The strange thing is that "katakaio" as a variant reading was introduced so early in textual transmission, hence the confusion.

Freddy was following along with the WH text which was superior in textual accuracy than that underlying the KJV, hence his reading. Maybe there is a place for him somewhere after all.

Cheers

5

Hebrews - God's Rest?

by TheListener in

hebrews - entering god's rest??

what is meant by and how do we enter gods rest?

hebrews the 3rd and 4th chapters tell us about gods rest.

moggy lover

Indeed the concept of God's "rest" has interesting possibilities in the theological field of study, and various interpretations are probably capable of being adduced from a reading of Hebrews 4. For what its worth I can share what I learned a while back when doing a group study on Hebrews. The viewpoint is evangelical and protestant, so if you are Catholic or SDA you may have a different point of view.

The writer of Hebrews was intimately tied up with the OT experience, and its weight on his theology is often apparent. If he was familiar with the Greek LXX which would have been available to him in the 1CAD, he would be aware of certain interlinking concepts. For instance, the LXX includes notable passages where the word for "rest" [greek kata-pausis] in connection with Israel's possession of the land is clearly paralleled with the word for "inheritance" [kle-ronomia] - DT 3:18-20, 12:9-11

Moses showed that for Israel, their "rest" was their "inheritance"

In the same way it may be natural to suppose that the writer of Hebrews was using "rest" as a funtional equivalent for a Christian's "rest" or "inheritance" That Christians are such "heirs" he has already affirmed at 1:14. The writer of Hebrews ' later call to patience that the reader may receive "what He has promised"is followed by an assurance that "in just a little while, "He who is coming will come and will not delay" " [10:36,37]

So God's "rest" is the garcious granting of a heavenly "inheritance" just to believers today, as His "rest" towards Israel was the gracious granting of a physical "inheritance" of the land of Israel. Unfortunately, the Israelites failed to "enter the Rest of God" [ie gain the permanent inheritance of the land] because, as you rightly pointed out, a lack of faith. [3:19]

But as the context of Hebrews shows, the writer here is more concerned with the here and now, and how the "rest" applies to Christians and a future "rest" for God's people [4:10] In 4:2, the writer points out that for his readers to profit from this invitation to enter God's rest, the reader had to "faith it" ie, "believe". In verse 3, he calls "us" the "hoi pisteu-santes" -"we, the believing ones" The Present tense participle, could suggest a perseverance in excercising this belief

It appears that belief, or faith, on the part of God's people, remains the prerequisitefor entrance into "God's rest" It is true that the writer enriched his thought of God's "rest" by alluding to the great Sabbath rest at the time of creation with the "rest" that the Israelites missed while in the desert, causing them a delay of a generation in inheriting portions of the Promised Land. But the continuation of that "rest" till now and until the consumation of all things, suggests God's gracious and continuous invitation to those who would take hold of the divinely authorized unheritance which is beckoning to those who "hear"

The "today" of verse 7, in ch 4, becomes the "today" of each person ever priveliged to read these words of Hebrews

Hope this helps

Cheers

16

Holy Spirit--The Force Behind the Coming New Order--PDF!

by Atlantis in

click on the link below and when the next page appears scroll down to the bottom and look to your [ left ] for [ seconds ] to be counting down to zero.

when the numbers reach zero a large [ yellow and orange button ] will appear with the word (download).

click on that button to open or save the file.

moggy lover

Indeed I recall less than fond memories regarding this book. As Atlantis has pointed out the book was first published in 1976, the year after the Great Disappointment of 1975. Despite all the gainsaying on the part of the WTS regarding what was and what was not said about 1975, there was an inexpressible sense of excitement and anticipation regarding this date on the part of us R&F members.

In that year we had at least three "special" talks, sometimes given in large cinema halls, and the two head honchos of the WTS, Nathan Gnaw, and Freddy Flintstone made well publicized visits to this country. The excitement was palpable, especially among the elderly, who like Charlie Moore, now simply a forgotten footnote to the lamentable catalogue of WT deceit, had been in the "troof" since the early 1900s. They had been hoping to pull themselves into the new world/order/system [the WTS simply could'nt decide which was which] even with at least one chariot wheel.

Then came 1976, and what do we get? The new world/etc etc ??... nah... instead we get........................................

Another publication !!!

The Holy Spirit. Intersperced throughout the book are curious references to the Holy Spirit. He is, for instance called "a force, not a person" [pg 12], an"impersonal active force of God" [pg 14] And in this Freddy Franz, presumably the anonymous author of this book, since he was dubbed the "oracle of god" may have anticipated George Lucas and his "May the force be with you" aphorism.

The most disgusting filth attributed to the Holy Spirit is however reserved for ch 8, where He is called the spirit of "truth"..... TRUTH???? The WTS leadership would'nt know truth even if it belted them in the rectums. Evidently this spirit of troof "revealed" to the WTS in 1919, that Christ had begun to reign in 1914 [pg 148], we know this to be the basest kind of falsehood, since the WTS was publishing information about Jesus reigning since 1874 right up to 1929 !! Like Milojan Djilas, noted ex-communist apologist, in order to gain the future, one must first rewrite the past.

The WTS was still holding out the carrot of the new world/system/order thingee in the concluding pages of this publication, because how could we resist such exhortations as this:"Forward then, unitedly, O remnant, and "great crowd" ! The invisible force that is behind God's coming new order is with you.. So count yourselves happy, highly favored!" [pg 162] With empty retoric such as this, is it any wonder the WTS allowed the book to go out of print as quickly as possible?

Their attitude seems to be.... ignore it, maybe it will go away. Not a chance, mate, not when Atlantis can getcha with your pants down.

Thanks again, Big A, may you get to heaven one second before the devil knowsabout it.

Great stuff, as usual.

Cheers

24

Paul's "full gospel" did NOT mention 144,000...

by bebu in

from reflecting on what paul writes in his letters, it is obvious he had never taught anything like the wts doctrines concerning the little flock (144,000) or the slave class, or any other unique jw gospel concept.

yet he was clear that he was preaching the entire gospel everywhere.. i picked out the following verses (you can find more but these are the most obvious) to show that 1) paul said his authority for the gospel he preached was given by god; 2) that he preached the gospel fully; and that he condemned any person or angel who preached a different gospel.

have you ever noticed, then, that though paul clarified the gospel in all of his letters in a variety of ways, the odd doctrines of the jws/wts were never once mentioned by paul?

moggy lover

Ooops... I seem to have put too many noughts in there. Of course its 144000 not 1440000. But you get my drift

Cheers

24

Paul's "full gospel" did NOT mention 144,000...

by bebu in

from reflecting on what paul writes in his letters, it is obvious he had never taught anything like the wts doctrines concerning the little flock (144,000) or the slave class, or any other unique jw gospel concept.

yet he was clear that he was preaching the entire gospel everywhere.. i picked out the following verses (you can find more but these are the most obvious) to show that 1) paul said his authority for the gospel he preached was given by god; 2) that he preached the gospel fully; and that he condemned any person or angel who preached a different gospel.

have you ever noticed, then, that though paul clarified the gospel in all of his letters in a variety of ways, the odd doctrines of the jws/wts were never once mentioned by paul?

moggy lover

Yeah, Blondie, as when "symbolic" 12000 from "symbolic" tribes of "symbolic" of "Israel" mysteriously makes up a literal 1440000 "spiritual" Israelites.

Erm... now lets see.... thats symbolic 12000, plus symbolic 12000, plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000 plus symbolic 12000............ makes... oh yeah I get it...... a literal 1440000 !!!

If I told my boss that I worked 12000 symbolic hours twelve times over and that she now owes me for 144000 literal hours she would give me a swift kick up the arse, and merrily send me on my way.

However.... coming to think of it..... I wonder if the WTS would pay up?

Cheers.

36

"These also I must bring..."John 10:16

by AuldSoul in

an invitation to any jws, ex-jws, faders, lurkers or readers: please wreck this if you can.

i trying to tackle a foundation doctrine of jws as simply as i possibly can.

if anyone has a way to further simplify this, please offer suggestions.. john 10:16"and i have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also i must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.".

moggy lover

One point regarding this scripture which clean bowled me for a duck when I was a WT follower [to use a cricket analogy, yes, the game they play in heaven] was when someone at the door pointed out the significance of the Jesus' use of the PRESENT tense.

Note that He said: "I have other sheep" not "I will have other sheep" [ie at some time in the future sayncirca 1935 AD] This then means that whoever these sheep were - they were in existence back there in the first century !!

Were the Gentiles in existence back then? You bet! Cornelius would be stomping around as a Roman centurion would, but knowing somewhere, somehow, that there was a higher calling.

Cheers